Kleros Escrow - additional use cases - suggestion, proposal, request for comments

marsrobertson · August 1, 2019, 3:50pm

1. Seeking a service, proof of seriousness

I have 1000 DAI allocated. I want the service provider to know that I’m serious.

Currently, when creating Escrow, an address of receiving party must be known.

Please allow address blank - after the service is provided the creator of the escrow will update it. (off-chain communication with the service provider)

Similar mechanism to existing Escrow, just a different order of executing steps

2. Fundraising

Say I’m raising money to buy an island: https://www.reddit.com/r/BurningMan/comments/cgqnyr/island_in_scotland_660acres_475_miles_of/

Say I raised $1m worth of crypto.

I don’t want to run away.

I want to be held accountable.

I want funds to be held in Escrow.

Similar to: https://beta.giveth.io/

In other words - the funds are allowed to be spent only for the purpose it was allocated, no lambos this time.

I could simply use a multi-sig, but I would have to trust other co-signers, in my version of reality I’d rather trust Shilling Point

clesaege · August 2, 2019, 4:25pm

For 1. you don’t need an escrow. You can just sign a message showing that you control the address controlling the funds.

For 2. you can already do this using CryptoUnlocked selecting Kleros as an arbitrator.

marsrobertson · August 3, 2019, 10:07am

For 1. Signing message proves that own the funds but I can move them anytime, anyplace. By putting them to Escrow - I’m bound by the rules, I cannot move it away.

For 2. It looks like a challenge question. What I need is a fundraiser with Escrow.

clesaege · August 5, 2019, 4:05am

But if the address is blank, you can then just put your own to get the funds back.
You can then send fund with cryptounlocked and if the answer is yes, the beneficiary is paid. It’s made to be a fundraising tool. But maybe the UI is not clear enough, if so don’t hesitate to give feedback to cryptounlocked team.

marsrobertson · August 5, 2019, 4:41am

That’s the point. Address is “______” - a service provider to be determined in the future. Funds are locked. The service provider then sends a TX with their adress “it was me did the service”.
My feedback: “I’m working with Kleros, I suggest new use case, CTO suggested your tool, I don’t think it is a good fit, I don’t understand” - I’m working with Kleros. I would like to raise $1m to buy an Island - but I “don’t trust verify”, I don’t even trust myself:

clesaege · August 5, 2019, 4:52am

What prevents the locker to pretend to be the service provider and get the funds back?
You can verify their smart contract. Kleros team is making a few dapps to bootstrap the network but the end goal is to mostly have external dapps connected to it.

marsrobertson · August 5, 2019, 4:54am

With that type of Escrow there is also and expiry date. So I can allow things to expire to get funds back. Also the guy who really did the service can protest… “wait a minute, it was me”
Sorry, not following, I just want multisig fundraiser but I don’t trust anyone. Maybe for simplicity, you can become one of them? You are trusted, reputable, have solid technical experience?

clesaege · August 5, 2019, 5:00am

Ho I get it now, so payment would not be instantaneous but would allow some time for people to claim to have done the work. I had made some similar proposal for tasks that anyone can complete, but only one person get paid:

For this project type, the task giver chooses a winner of the contest or choose not to have any winner (“None” choice).

There is a period for other workers to challenge this choice, they can do so by putting a deposit for themselves. The task giver can also put a deposit for its choice. When the first deposit is put, the challenge period is extended in order to let time to other parties to put a deposit themselves.

After the challenge period is over:

If there are no deposits, the choice of the task giver applies.

If there is one deposit, the choice having this deposit applies.

If there is more than one deposit, a dispute is created. Parties have time to produce evidence. Kleros jurors then vote for the worker they believe best deserve the reward (or on “None” if they believe none of them deserve it). Once a Kleros ruling has been delivered, any of the party involved can create an appeal by paying appeal fees.

If the winning choice is a worker, this worker get paid. If it is “None”, the task giver is reimbursed.

I get it now, with cryptounlocked you only get the money once the job is complete, why here you may want to give the money before, but restrict how it can be used. Yeah that could be a good usecase. Some sort of financial auditor apps where people can challenge tx for not contributing toward the project goal.

marsrobertson · August 5, 2019, 5:52am

Ho I get it now

I get it now

Was it you or me?

I guess noone sits in my head

Communication - difficult skill, always learning.

How to communicate ideas in a way that are understood with busy people with little time?

Yeah baby, I really want to buy this an island (currently stealth mode), need $1m. Solid business plan, I’ll go the bank with it…

marsrobertson · August 6, 2019, 7:49pm

From the latest community update: https://blog.kleros.io/kleros-community-update-august-2019/

Yeah… It simply makes sense:

marsrobertson · December 24, 2019, 5:04pm

https://kleros.slack.com/archives/C8DS53V1D/p1577135359005700?thread_ts=1577099717.003700&cid=C8DS53V1D

It should be possible to create the Escrow without knowing the other party address.

Fraud prevention mechanism: 7 days timeout.

During these 7 days, anyone who did the work can submit evidence - “hey it is me, the address that was added is fraudulent”

Not needing to know the ETH address upfront is a pure convenience without heavy negative effects (see the circumvention mechanism above)

marsrobertson · December 25, 2019, 5:47pm

I think it worth to add additional explanation.

Not knowing the address. Seriousness signalling.

It is useful to be able to create Escrow without knowing the other party address.

I seek an exclusive service, something that is not widely advertised on the internet such as MDMA therapy - currently only underground, Phase 3 FDA-approved trials ongoing, Dr Ben Sessa doing research in Bristol but that’s for alcoholism, I seek MDMA therapy for a different condition.

I want my service providers to know that I’m serious, that’s why 1000 DAI deposit in Escrow.

I do not know the Ethereum address of the service provider right nwo but I want potential brokers to know that I’m serious - putting money where my mouth is.

Speed and convenience.

Someone may not know their ETH address right now.

On mobile.
Trezor in the mail.
Need visit to local crypto meetup to set it up.

Here is the flow:

Buyer puts the money into Escrow.
Service provider starts work, knowing the funds are in place and soon the address will be updated.
Update the address once it is known

Of course there is a potential for fraud here. Anyone (not service provider) could upload the address. Or if we lock it up (_onlyBuyer), then the buyer could set it up to himself. That’s why 7 days timeout - anyone can challenge it and provide evidence:

Hey, it’s me, it’s me who is working on this project but that’s not my ETH address.

I think that this is a pretty decent fraud prevention mechanism that is eating own dogfood.

marsrobertson · January 4, 2020, 5:59pm

Via Giveth: https://matrix.to/#/!FBZLHmkNLmabnszigV:matrix.org/$1577985729403206uatwp:matrix.org?via=matrix.org&via=matrix.kiwifarms.net&via=feneas.org

Ability to accept ETH, ERC20 and NFT (crypto kitties donation)

All the resources are kept in Escrow.

I spend funds in 3D world.

I request the refund.

I show the discussion, market research, tender, proof of purchase, receipts.

If there is anything dubious - anyone can challenge.

If no dispute after 7 days funds are released.

I don’t expect many disputes - I actually want as much publicity as possible, as many prying eyes, people on the the internet helping me, people on the internet doing someresearch.

But if I was to do something crazy - I spend my GBP money and never get refunded.

I have some line of credit on my American Express and Visa - can handle 7 days delay with the release.

If something bigger than my capacity, then:

I should talk with the vendor to provide their ETH address
I can ask to release money upfront, up to 20% of the total pile (less incentives for exit scam)

Trust pricinples:

Don’t trust, verify.
I don’t trust myself.
I don’t trust multisigs (collusion)
But I trust in rational game theory incentives.
I have the trust that Kleros protocol incentivises jurors to vote according to the truth and because I want to get as much publicity (traffic on the website, research on the forum) I’m totally OK to operate transparently, in public.

Question: do I want to operate as DAO?

That might be slow to move…

Moxie Marlinspike at 36C3 “The ecosystem is moving”:

I might try these guys - https://fundraising.aragon.black/ (currently Rinkeby only) - or https://giveth.io/ but they are not onboarding new projects…

sjj · January 4, 2020, 7:25pm

I think the Kleros escrow usecase for Giveth makes a lot of sense. It’s similar to CryptoUnlocked and would give benefits for both sides.

marsrobertson · January 4, 2020, 8:47pm

I had a look after Kleros posted on Twitter, had a chat via Twitter PM with the co-founder - https://twitter.com/gliinbox - and it is not suited to my needs.

(technically not a blog post but forum post is close enough)

ability to raise funds with no fixed end date. Climate emergency is not going anywhere.
ability to spend money as you go. Not only after the reporting date.

Instant upon prompting me for login, such an UX anti-pattern. One of the features of crypto is being permissionless, I cannot imagine myself raising funds with such interstitial.

I literally closed the tab in an instant.