Extending "fake news" prevention mechanism + banning "fake news" (just like you ban chemical weapons, land mines and nukes)

In principle, I’m a big supporter of freedom, at the same time, even I have some limits.

I’m seriously concerned about “fake news”. Previously I posted the proposal - Feature request - ability to mark evidence as "fake news"

Now I suggest “fake news” prevention mechanism to be extended. At the same time, I’m worried that will create another 1984: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministries_of_Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Ministry_of_Truth

That’s why thinking about the right incentive design. People participating in the network, veryfying the facts, creating and voting on disputes. If Basic Attention Token fuels the Brave browser, maybe the publishers earning money can voluntarily join the “fake news” prevention network. Brave could automatically highlight the disputed, verifified or debunked statemets.

(pretty sure there are Chrome extensions that do similar but I don’t think any of them achieved the economy of the scale)

I know that in theory free market, people have brains, it’s up to individual to decide, awake and realise what’s going on. At the same time I’m worried about all the years of brainwashing.


(credit to YouTube for highlighting where is money coming from)

See what happens if one company controls the message:

Some current and some old treaties and rules of war.

Hybrid warfare is a military strategy which employs political warfare and blends conventional warfare, irregular warfare and cyberwarfare[1]with other influencing methods, such as fake news,[2] diplomacy, lawfare and foreign electoral intervention.[3][4]

“Fake news” does not have to be outright lying (this can be easily spotted) but telling the narrative that focuses on a certain angle rather than a full picture.

Example of “fake news” reporting

I call it “fake news” because even though the individual statements can be factually correct, they are not representing the underlying reality:

Russia’s Federal Forestry Agency says more than 2.7m hectares (6.7m acres) of remote forest are currently burning across six Siberian and eastern regions.

However, Greenpeace Russia says as many as 3.3m hectares are burning - an area bigger than Belgium.

Ten planes and 10 helicopters with firefighting equipment were being deployed in the regions.

Whether it is 2.7m or 3.3m does not really matter at this scale. Do not emphasise the discrepancy.

What really matters here is a giant number and ten planes or 10 helicopters are not going to make a difference. Do not offer people false hope shit sandwich.

I genuinely think this guys is disgraceful

And if only it was possible shoudl pay the fine

My attempt to TELL THE TRUTH

Under the normal circumstances I couldn’t care less.

Think whatever you think, click whatever you click.

It’s just the fact that escalating climate change is so dangerous, that denying this fact cost me dearly.

Shameless plug: https://genesis.re/wiki#Plan_B

I’m really hoping that Diamandis and XPrize will pick it up, R&D is resources consuming and design of this scale will require serious brainpower…

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I just spoke with someone yesterday about this being a potential Kleros-Brave project.
Brave users could tag/comment webpages by putting a small BAT deposit (automatically reimbursed after like 1 day). Users could give taggers BAT tokens as a reward.
Watchers could challenge tags put putting a ETH deposit. If not counter-challenged, they’d steal the BAT deposit of the tagger.
Watchers could also counter-challenge, putting a ETH deposit. That would lead to a Kleros dispute deciding who gets the ETH and BAT.


We indeed had an interesting discussion with Clément yesterday on a similar topic.

I thought about a similar idea in 2018 with a friend of mine and we conceptually developed some aspects of a news verification system. Here is a short introduction of what we came up with.

One of the notable difficulties with fighting fake news is that it isn’t always so easy to define. While some information can be outright false, reality is often more nuanced: some articles are factual but misleading, some articles are extremely biased and can give a feeling of being “fake” while still being actually factual, some articles use logical fallacies etc.

I would be fiercely opposed to a blanket ban of “fake news” without further defining the term as it could be an important threat to free speech. Take the subject of climate change for example. Climate change is a very serious subject that suffers from a lot of disinformation, but you can’t simply “ban climate catastrophe denial”. Climate science is extremely complex, atmospheric physics for example is fluid mechanics but in the most complex system imaginable instead of some random pipe. Scientists don’t all agree on predictions and errors are hard to quantify in such a chaotic system. So at what point is something considered “denial”? Richard Lindzen (see wiki) is an expert in atmospheric physics and has some reasonable criticism of existing climate models. Of course, his work can and should be criticized, as is the norm with the scientific method, but when he said in 2009 that the IPCC models failed to account for naturally occurring cycles as El Niño, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation, etc, was this fake news? Was this denial? Or was this valid criticism worth looking into to improve our models one way or another? I hope this example is not too polarizing and gives an idea of where I was getting at when I said that “fake news” was too vague.

Still on the topic of climate change, you might be interested in Climate Feedback, a project from a group of climate experts that use Hypothes.is to annotate climate related articles and evaluate their scientific credibility.

Any project trying to tackle this is also at a risk of being called out as being biased itself. This is something transparent, censorship resistant blockchains could help mitigate.

I am interested in further discussions that might come up on this topic, good thinking about Kleros being potentially helpful!

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Thank you for the comments.

Me posting on the forum (and then sharing on Telegram, Slack, Twitter) and you having the conversation about the same thing in another part of the planet - definitely there is something in the air :slight_smile:

Some links posted on Telegram in response:

“There’s also no guarantee that every post that’s reported as false will be routed to fact-checkers. Otway says Instagram uses a combination of factors to determine whether a reported post is passed on to third-party fact-checkers.”

“If all that sounds like a fairly incremental step, that’s because it is. (Instagram still only works with U.S.-based fact-checkers for now.) But it is one that could lay important groundwork for future improvements, according to Instagram. Otway says that the new user reports will be used to help train Instagram’s AI technology that could eventually automatically detect some kinds of false information.”


Check their working conditions:

I don’t think it can ever scale…

Social media gave the power for any individual to become a publisher. More guys publishing, more guys reviewing, it will never scale.

Will Kleros provide right incentives for little guys to earn $0.5 multiple times per day?

Reality filter (random examples)

I wouldn’t mind having Brave native feature or Chrome extension that would add an overlay with an extra layer and verify the facts.

Lessons from the history

After the fire, the Reichstag Fire Decree was passed. The Nazi Party used the fire as a pretext that communists were plotting against the German government, and the event is considered pivotal in the establishment of Nazi Germany.

Some historians endorse the theory proposed by the Communist Party that the arson was planned and ordered by the Nazis as a false flag operation.

In principle, I’m a big supporter of freedom, at the same time, even I have some limits.

As long as it is legal and profitable, there will be clickbait titles and shady techniques.

As long as it is legal and profitable, the environment will suffer and as a result most of the humanity will cease to exist:

I wrote some pages about the policies that have to change.

(loads of pages but plenty of images too)

First one is about changing consensus mechanism in United Nations, otherwise Saudi Arabia (the highest CO2 per capita, death penalty for using WhatsApp or being gay) will block anything that reduces dependency on oil, the second is “fake news”, the third is education, market price for water, meat, CO2 comes next…

It’s OK to be wrong. It’s OK to challenge false statements. It’s OK to update a blogpost. It’s OK to have a meaningful discussion:

  • here is what I think
  • here is another point of view
  • there are multiple viewpoints, potential causes

I wouldn’t mind having Brave native feature or Chrome extension that would add an overlay with an extra layer and verify the facts.

In the world where https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_warfare is a commonplace, having “fake news” reality filter becomes a must.

EDIT: Some links:

Killer feature for Kleros to dispute allegations and counter-allegations?

The highest voted thing on r/worldnews this week:

Accusations of anti-conservative bias have become a frequent rallying cry for Trump and his supporters, seizing on incidents in which tech platforms like Facebook, Twitter and Google-owned YouTube have banned people like InfoWars founder and conspiracy theorist Alex Jones or faced accusations of squelching posts by pro-Trump social media personalities Diamond and Silk.

My genuine thoughts on “fake news” hybrid warfare

In principle, I’m a big supporter of freedom, at the same time, even I have some limits.

I wouldn’t mind having Brave native feature or Chrome extension that would add an overlay with an extra layer and verify the facts.

I would definitely pay extra if there was a tool that would augment / enhance / protect my perception…

Andreas tweeting about the law:

I’m OK to have at least minimal worldwide standard:

  • no killing
  • no theft
  • no rape
  • no chemical weapons
  • no nukes
  • no fake news (hybrid warfare)

(just like minimal safety standard, ISO something certification)

Yesterday I arrived to Germany, landed to Berlin, I know they are particular about Hitler, I wasn’t sure if I can legally visit any websites related to nazism. It just happened that “nazism” was trending on Twitter:

I explained some of my thoughts to a bunch of geeks at the camp. Fake news, freedom of speech, censorship, tolerance. Learned a new term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Because it is a paradox, a philosophical debate, I’m glad someone introduced me to this term, saving me writing lengthy essays.

State actors engaging in warfare on Twitter

Overall, these accounts were deliberately and specifically attempting to sow political discord in Hong Kong, including undermining the legitimacy and political positions of the protest movement on the ground. Based on our intensive investigations, we have reliable evidence to support that this is a coordinated state-backed operation.

UPDATE 2019-08-22:

Could you imagine 5 years ago that president of the US would tweet that he is not a fan of Bitcoin and China engage as well?

We have a problem

Until recently I thought:

“people are free, people are free to think whatever they want, they have brains, I have my brain as well”

Having seen “The Great Hack” I’ve realized I’m affected as well…

Finding solutions?

Just like VPN can protect you from unsecured connection, I’m OK to have an extension that can protect me from fake news by visiting only websites that have been verified.

  • https://web.hypothes.is - annotating web
  • Brave / Chrome extension - addinional presentation layer
  • BAT / PNK - staking, incentives

You are what you eat - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Size_Me - if you consume false, untrue, misleading information - these manipulative thoughts are becoming part of your brain. In the democracy where 51-49 is sufficient to make a long-lasting decision I prefer to avoid expensive arms race - who has the best propaganda machine (hybrid warfare) but focus on more objective version of reality.

An extension telling me:

“27 people flagged this fragment and there was 70-30 vote on that”

It will signal to me it’s a controversial issue, that has some merit, I’m pretty sure these guys would provide some additional resources and I’d have liberty to investigate further.

It should be extended to video content - streaming on demand - Netflix, Youtube, BBC iPlayer and ITV (popular in the UK). Cost of production, re-encoding prohibitive. But add an overlay on top via an extension? Hell yeah, why not…

Elliot, also part of Kleros Fellowship, sent this link:

This is my friend’s model for disinformation, adversarial networked conflict

Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee - Oral Evidence - Fake News -Brittany Kaiser, former Director of Program Development, Cambridge Analytica.

The promo video said “we cannot stop it”. This a “talk is cheap, show me talk” wannabe magic wand, magic want:

  • https://web.hypothes.is - annotating web
  • Brave / Chrome extension - addinional presentation layer
  • BAT / PNK - staking, incentives

My concern - data that is factually true, but completely out of context, without background, without explaining the implications.

The film, which displayed supposedly happy and healthy Jews, was part of a larger Nazi program to use Theresienstadt as a tool to discredit reports of the genocide of Jews reaching the Western Allies and neutral countries.

Using Holocaust analogy - “meat rations in concentration camps have increased in the previous month” - the statement is factually true - from 0g to 5g - but does not portray the full picture.

BREXIT was NOT a democratic vote

Of course I was able to find an article confirming my thesis: https://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-referendum-topics/the-eu-referendum-result-has-no-democratic-legitimacy-at-all.html

It was “democratic” in the same way Hitler was “democratic”

From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stimmzettel-Anschluss.jpg


He hosted the Olympic Games in 1936. He was recognized as Time Person of the Year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Person_of_the_Year

Another incident from 1933: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire

The Nazi Party used the fire as a pretext that communists were plotting against the German government, and the event is considered pivotal in the establishment of Nazi Germany. The term “Reichstag fire” has come to refer to false flag actions facilitated by an authority to promote their own interests through popular approval of retribution or retraction of civil rights.

I am 100% honest, authentic, genuine comparing current political affairs with Hitler and Nazi Germany.

I repeat: BREXIT was NOT a democratic vote.

It was a military technology deployed towards citizens of the UK:

They obtained a large number of data points about each voter It wasn’t possible before Facebook, big data and some other clever algorithms.

  • Someone is religious - message about Islam for them.
  • Someone has health issues - message about NHS for them.
  • Someone likes cats - use cat image in the advert for them.

Blade Runner, Minority Report, all these futuristic movies becoming pretty much a reality.

It’s just like playing chess and knowing your opponent next move, or breaking Enigma and decode U-boot orders during battle of Atlantic - pretty much a game changer.

Laws are made in response to the event, there was no taxation on Bitcoin before Bitcoin. There were no laws explicitly saying “you cannot do _______” because the lawmakers were not aware this is possible. No one really knew it is happening, only after some guys blew the whistle.

One can debate whether BREXIT is good or wrong. One can debate whether a second vote is desirable. It perfectly possible to realise that actually we we did know the full scope of consequences, we realise that, we may want to reconsider.

I’m pretty sure very few voting for BREXIT realised the trouble of the North Ireland border. Was it a part of the debate during the campaign?

I’m advocating educated choice based on the true, accurate, factual information.

Democracy has been hijacked, kidnapped, hacked.

I urge you (strongly recommended) to watch the movie “The Great Hack”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX8GxLP1FHo

Previously I thought “I have my brain, I check my sources, people are free to think whatever they want”

The trouble with that approach - with the current model of democracy, I’m affected as well. You can check another thread: Cross-post from Citizens' Assembly forum - thoughts about "fake news", BREXIT, liquid democracy, voting mechanism, United Nations, consensus protocols

(I believe that we reached a sufficient level of technology to phase-out the current model of democracy and run some pilots with https://democracy.earth and similar)

How to maintain sanity?

No path to happiness, happiness is the way.

I made a conscious decision to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_cost_averaging until the May 2020 halving and then reassess the situation. Snippet from: https://medium.com/datadriveninvestor/bitcoin-an-asymmetric-trading-opportunity-557d4c0ef903

As a partial list of negative macro news, we have possible Germany and Italy recessions, worldwide bonds trading at negative values, global manufacturing down, housing market peaking, US consumer sentiment weakening, Japanese and South Korean trade wars, record levels of corporate and low grade debt, an inverted yield curve, an Argentinean financial crisis, Hong Kong protests becoming increasingly violent, auto sales peaking, cyclical and small caps under-performing, a hard Brexit, Fed cutting interest rates (best case scenario a short term boom as it almost always precedes a recession, not to mention causes inflation which is a plus for bitcoin), and the US election season barely starting. Oh, and did I mention the global trade wars?
Why might bitcoin be positively correlated with any one of these negative triggers?

Copy of this thread: http://genesis.re/wiki#Fake_News (explaining why I’m concerned about censorship)

IPFS copy: https://gateway.ipfs.io/ipfs/QmY78iMbbkNceqHSQPK5H1Bu1wuZmtTcsVVjfFWmSYTshB

I think I had enough, dollar cost averaging is my sane response.

Previously stuffing keywords to trick the Google: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-model-google-news

One theory is that Johnson is trying to downplay negative news coverage of events by seeding news stories into Google search results by using similar phrases and key terms that are more positive. For instance – the hypothesis goes – by saying he was the “model of restraint”, Johnson was attempting to divert attention from stories detailing his alleged affair with former model Jennifer Arcuri, which became less visible in search results for “Boris Johnson model”.

Last night:

Bona fide fact-checking organisations condemned the move as “inappropriate” while a top EU politicians said it amounted to “dystopian” disinformation of the kind seen in authoritarian states.

“Dystopian. Not even [Hungarian far-right prime minister Viktor] Orban or the Polish PiS [ruling party] would dream this up, let alone do it,” said Guy Verhofstadt, the European parliament’s Brexit coordinator.

“It is inappropriate and misleading for the Conservative press office to rename their Twitter account factcheckUK during this debate. Please do not mistake it for an independent factchecking service.”

Dystopian is the new normal.

Great podcast about inevitable near-term social collapse: https://anchor.fm/emerge/episodes/Skinner-Layne---Embracing-Collapse-Transforming-Tragedy-into-Meaningfulness-e3pjuk

Apparently “fake news” law is already a thing in Singapore: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/25/singapore-fake-news-law-facebook-brad-bowyer

Protection from Online Falsehoods and Manipulation Act (POFMA)

Singapore says it is particularly vulnerable to fake news because of its position as a global financial hub, its mixed ethnic and religious population and widespread internet access.

Personally, I was never a big fan of Singapore:

Image from: https://www.flickr.com/photos/alex-s/2730362369/

36C3 - Inside the Fake Like Factories

New normal?

Public Annotation Network

Public Annotation Network (PAN) is an open source censorship-resistant web annotation service - driven by Ethereum and IPFS!

And then add disputes on top…

My hypothesis - in many cases it won’t be possible to reach a consensus. At the same time, a 70/30 80/20 90/10 split with strong minority opinions can be a sufficient signal to a reader that some data point is a “fake news”.

I don’t understand the thread. Are you giving examples of “fake news”?
I’d like to develop something about this, I’ve found this subject interesting for a while now, so much that it got me into learning Solidity to see if my idea was feasible.

I’ve just realized to what extent FAKE NEWS is an issue.

Cambridge Analytica - has anyone went to prison?

series of questions to build psychological profiles on users

sell the data of American voters to political campaigns and ultimately provided assistance and analytics to the 2016 presidential campaigns

I think there are very few laws around FAKE NEWS around the world.

Of course I’m heavily in the “don’t trust, verify” camp but if I live in the society I’m affected by others as well…

This thread is about the existential nature of FAKE NEWS

It would be “nice to have” to have an option to mark evidence as FAKE NEWS and launch a separate Kleros case.

Twitter censoring president.





Manipulating media… Intense